Curse

Zorlag · Jun 01, 2005, 01:05 AM // 01:05

Yep, I've played a lot. I got this game very soon after Anet put it on online distribution (I bought it online, no box or anything). I had some days with nothing to do so I just played, aiming for Tombs and HoH PvP eventually. You can be sure that if there was option to play PvP straight away with flexible builds I would have. I'm a competitive person by nature and games are my most important hobby. Sometimes I take a break too so I don't end up dead like those korean dudes that played till they died though... I'm not that hardcore.

Now did i enjoy playing? Sure, but after 50 hours or so it became more and more goal oriented, some farming and all.

Sure I did play a bit of PvP just to test some skillsets on random arena opponents but organized flexible teamplay is where it is at for me... Plus I didn't have clan to practice with back then. If I want a quick fix of fun I'll go and play UT2k4 Team arena or instagib CTF. For example on iCTF our team 3F is one of the europes best teams, this year we played on Clanbase Eurocup which is the tourney for that gametype. It's decent fun on publics too.

Red Locust · Jun 01, 2005, 01:07 AM // 01:07

Oh god, separating the community into UAS and PvE/PvP ladders would kill the PvE. People won't bother with the PvE, and the whole world ArenaNet created would go to waste. Do you people seriously think ArenaNet would do this?

Loviatar · Jun 01, 2005, 01:23 AM // 01:23

[QUOTE=Zorlag] Sometimes I take a break too so I don't end up dead like those korean dudes that played till they died though... I'm not that hardcore. QUOTE]

thanks

i was curious

AirOnG · Jun 01, 2005, 01:53 AM // 01:53

You PvEers do realize that the PvE missions are not the primary problem to PvPers, right? The main problem is having to go out to the exact same area in a Diablo II-esque fashion repeatedly over and over again to get an elite skill or farm for runes and weapon mods. I just cannot fathom how anyone could believe that that is a game mechanic worthy of praise, but here we are.

The Virago · Jun 01, 2005, 02:20 AM // 02:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by AirOnG

You PvEers do realize that the PvE missions are not the primary problem to PvPers, right? The main problem is having to go out to the exact same area in a Diablo II-esque fashion repeatedly over and over again to get an elite skill or farm for runes and weapon mods. I just cannot fathom how anyone could believe that that is a game mechanic worthy of praise, but here we are.

It's the way things are done. Sometimes they are more cleverly disguised (e.g., the process is more interesting), but usually this is not the case for new games.

There is a difference between a 'grind' and a 'time sink', by the way. A grind is a repetitious process, a time sink is a required investment of time to reach a specific end. Here, the two are somewhat combined as the required method is restricted both by necessity to kill the same things over and over to get the reward (grind) because the ratio of rewards to attempts is high (time sink).

This also is something a lot of game companies do initially, and almost always wind up toning down the time sink portion of things after their launch has stabilized (read: they've met the marketing forecast and can afford to loosen up the bottleneck a bit).

Frankly, I fully expect drop rates to increase with time because that is the usual means by which game companies support things like multiple accounts per player and maximum characters per account.

Prediction #1: Six months from now, this will be a non-issue for this chapter, both because drop rates will be significantly increased and enough people will have stayed and played enough to introduce ready supplies of all runes and upgrades to the economy.

Prediction #2: There is a segment of the playing populace that will see this tactic of managing the playerbase repeated with new chapters and will complain each time, never understanding the cyclic nature.

Prediction #3: Those who lack the insight to understand the method or the patience to wait it out will be gone by then.

Prediction #4: The furor on the forums will not be missed. (grin)

AirOnG · Jun 01, 2005, 02:29 AM // 02:29

So you're saying it's a mechanic companies such as a.net incorporate do to retain the playerbase and somehow add more sales. They don't have a monthly fee, so I don't think this argument holds as well.

From a gameplay perspective, you have yet to prove it's not an awful gameplay mechanic.

The Virago · Jun 01, 2005, 02:40 AM // 02:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by AirOnG

So you're saying it's a mechanic companies such as a.net incorporate do to retain the playerbase and somehow add more sales. They don't have a monthly fee, so I don't think this argument holds as well.

From a gameplay perspective, you have yet to prove it's not an awful gameplay mechanic.

I'm saying it is normal for the industry, demonstrably so. If you have played more than five MMOs in your playing history, you should know what I mean.

I have no obligation to satisfy your need for 'proof', especially when you demonstrate time and time again that you are either unwilling or unable to accept simple realities like 'There is more to be considered in a game's design than how long it takes to unlock all available skills and upgrades.'

My last post was an attempt to soothe some of what is rapidly approaching hysteria on the matter. You are under no obligation to understand it, but I think you would be less frustrated while you are playing if you did.

The Pope · Jun 01, 2005, 02:43 AM // 02:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Locust

Oh god, separating the community into UAS and PvE/PvP ladders would kill the PvE. People won't bother with the PvE, and the whole world ArenaNet created would go to waste. Do you people seriously think ArenaNet would do this?

Do you really want to have people who don't want to be PvEing in your groups? I'd say PvE would be much better if the groups were made entirely of people who were playing it for fun rather than just to get it over with ASAP. There are people who drop after getting an elite they need or finishing a bonus, leaving their group a player down. This problem would not exist if those people didn't need to join your group to get those elite skills.

Fantras · Jun 01, 2005, 03:07 AM // 03:07

If it takes you 5 hours to get a single elite skill, I pity you. I got 3 last night, while getting an extra skill point for my last elite, in 6 hours. No matter what happens, if they give you UAS, if they give you a guild hall, there will be something you (meaning all the "grind" complainers) will find to bitch about.

Quintus · Jun 01, 2005, 05:12 AM // 05:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Virago

I'm saying it is normal for the industry, demonstrably so. If you have played more than five MMOs in your playing history, you should know what I mean.

I have no obligation to satisfy your need for 'proof', especially when you demonstrate time and time again that you are either unwilling or unable to accept simple realities like 'There is more to be considered in a game's design than how long it takes to unlock all available skills and upgrades.'

My last post was an attempt to soothe some of what is rapidly approaching hysteria on the matter. You are under no obligation to understand it, but I think you would be less frustrated while you are playing if you did.

This isn't a MMO, though. So your point is already moot, but for the sake of arguing...

Even if this was an MMO game it wouldn't (and doesn't) need this type of gameplay, simply because it doesn't have monthly fees. Those MMOs that you refer to have this "grind/timesink" gameplay because of the addictive nature that they have.People see the gameplay after the "grind" as a carrot dangling from a string. This "carrot" is impossible to get to, but the people continue to play and pay for the game month after month in an attempt to finally get to the fun gameplay after the "grind". But since Guild Wars does not have a monthly fee, these mechanics are not only unnecessary, but they are actually detrimental to the game. (This is because the more people play the more costs are accrued that are not paid for by monthly fees.)

Dumachum · Jun 01, 2005, 05:13 AM // 05:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by gwden

I was following a similar thread on another message board and it had a humorous ending.
Scroll down to where gimmeUASplz requests Khrysyl for his/her level and general experience with the game. After taking some time to think about the question, Krysyl replied that level doesn't matter and requested that the thread be closed.

http://www.guild-hall.net/forum/show...3&page=6&pp=25

In case you haven't figured it out yet, Khrysyl is anti-UAS. This appears to be a common pattern, where those who oppose UAS haven't completed the game, and those who did complete the game, support UAS. I have no doubt that those who oppose UAS will change their perspective when they actually beat the game.

I finished the game. 25 days old. 600,000+ exp. Finished the final mission 2 times once with other players and once with all hench. I am Level 20 with most skills unlocked for warrior, monk, mezmer, and necromancer and all but 1 or 2 elites unlocked for War and Necro. Most majors and all but 1 superior rune still remain LOCKED. My teams have no problem being competetive in ToPK and unless the others are very coordinated usually stand no chance at stopping us. My guild has won the hall, have our guild hall, etc.

If ANET gives in to the whining, so called, "competetive PvP'ers" and installs a UAS system I will never log back on again nor will I buy any expansion.

There IS NO GRIND in this game. You DO NOT need every ****ing thing to be unlocked to be "competetive'. Unlocking all the elites and superior runes may give you maybe...a 5% chance to win over a equal team with all the same skills and gear excepting those. it does not dictate winning or losing. You are simply trying to come up with excuses to get your own whining ways, over the non pvp'ers/pk's, which is no different then the "hardcore pvp" communities I have experienced in any other online game in my long online gaming career dating back to the golden days of Multi User Dungeons.

Awol Duteq · Jun 01, 2005, 05:16 AM // 05:16

It is too an MMO

Massivly - yup how many people on at any given time? Massive
Multiplayer - even if theres only 2 people, it's multiplayer
Online - duh

Not arguing for or against, just pointing out it is an mmo.

Quintus · Jun 01, 2005, 05:21 AM // 05:21

I was referring to the genre and not what the actual words mean. (Going by the words only, I agree that this is a MMO.)

Edit: fixed a grammatical mistake

Awol Duteq · Jun 01, 2005, 05:24 AM // 05:24

Yeah ok gotcha. Yeah this is pretty much in it's own category. Prolly best just to call it as Anet did, CoRPG style.

AirOnG · Jun 01, 2005, 05:29 AM // 05:29

Dumachum, what is your /age time and how much would you say your proportion of time spent in the game was devoted to farming. I seriously doubt you have all superior runes for those classes but one unlocked unless you have over 500 hours of solid playtime.

Dumachum · Jun 01, 2005, 05:41 AM // 05:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by AirOnG

Dumachum, what is your /age time and how much would you say your proportion of time spent in the game was devoted to farming. I seriously doubt you have all superior runes for those classes but one unlocked unless you have over 500 hours of solid playtime.

I have nowhere near 500 hours of playtime logged. Less then half that. And I only started "farming/grinding", however you choose to refer to it, 3 or 4 days ago and thats just buying skills by changing my secondary. Already have a set of 15k armor all gotten within the last few days. In 1999, 1 month into Everquest, I believe I was maybe level 20-25 and just starting to explore Cazic Thule as a server first in plain banded mail. You cannot even compare "grinding" to anything present in Guild Wars at the present time.

PieXags · Jun 01, 2005, 05:48 AM // 05:48

Ok, I don't really care about the rest of this topic as I'm sure it's filled with crap I've read a katrillion times.

Just to clarify though, you do NOT need all your superior runes to be competitive in PvP, in fact many times it's good NOT to have superior runes. The health decrease of them evens it out so that someone who doesn't have them can still take you down and what not. It does NOT take 500 hours to get the skills you want for a character and to get the appropriate runes. If you're looking to find superior runes of every one of your attributes, maybe, but this is a waste.

I need a drink.

AirOnG · Jun 01, 2005, 06:23 AM // 06:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by PieXags

Just to clarify though, you do NOT need all your superior runes to be competitive in PvP, in fact many times it's good NOT to have superior runes. The health decrease of them evens it out so that someone who doesn't have them can still take you down and what not. It does NOT take 500 hours to get the skills you want for a character and to get the appropriate runes. If you're looking to find superior runes of every one of your attributes, maybe, but this is a waste.

Alpha and beta PvPers almost unanimously agree that superior runes give an undeniable advantage over those who do not have such runes, and thus they are necessary to remain competitive. Also, having more superior runes (than just simply for one single class) means you can switch classes when needed to fulfill a role much more easily and makes your guild more flexible. You have to remember that the minor health disadvantage is offset by the massive amount of healing that goes on during a match. 75 health is a drop in the bucket in the thousands of health you are potentially healed for. The amount of damage or healing you do by those added attribute points will easily go over 75 points of healing or damage.

Lazarous · Jun 01, 2005, 07:02 AM // 07:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dumachum

There IS NO GRIND in this game. You DO NOT need every ****ing thing to be unlocked to be "competetive'. Unlocking all the elites and superior runes may give you maybe...a 5% chance to win over a equal team with all the same skills and gear excepting those. it does not dictate winning or losing. You are simply trying to come up with excuses to get your own whining ways, over the non pvp'ers/pk's, which is no different then the "hardcore pvp" communities I have experienced in any other online game in my long online gaming career dating back to the golden days of Multi User Dungeons.

Cut from a reply by alex weeks at TGH:

Quote:

Originally Posted by alex weeks

Try again after the patch and let us know how it goes.

The list of upcoming updates on the site is a highlight of what is coming. That's not the whole list. I think many of you will be happy with the incremental steps taken towards helping reduce grind for PvP players. Some of the changes directly address some concerns I see posted on a daily basis ... if I see them being brushed away as being "not enough" then I won't be happy .

No grind, huh?
http://www.guild-hall.net/forum/show...9&page=5&pp=25

PieXags · Jun 01, 2005, 07:47 AM // 07:47

You're right Air, but you can't refill health points that aren't there in the first place. I do by all means agree, one, MAYBE 2 superior runes can do some good, but that's a maybe, because that's over 100 health down the train, about 1/5 of your would-be total. If you have 3 attributes and have 3 superior runes, one for each, that's a decent amount of health down the drain, and sure you can add one of superior vigor to even that out, but you're still missing over 100 'eh? And 100 health points, about 1/5 of your life, can be the difference between life and death. I personally just find that, I can either get about 10-15 extra damage on my skills (using a death magic attribute of say going from 12-14, or I can keep my health. I personally like my health. Then again, being a necro, health is important to me, and I am RARELY the target for our monks, so I suppose it all really depends on what character you're playing and how you play it that decides what you'll need and what you won't need.

Valid point I suppose, more speaking from personal tastes I guess is what I'm doing.